Barack Obama

[angischy]

If you're online NOW, check this out

Grateful Dead Members to Reunite for Barack Obama (http://www.iclips.net/deadheadsforobama.php)
from The Warfield Theatre
Monday, February 4th, 2008
Doors 6:00 PM/ Show 7:30PM (10:30pm EST aka *now!*)
& streaming live online here (http://www.iclips.net/deadheadsforobama.php)

http://www.iclips.net/images/showcaser/pic1a.jpg

[ragmop]

cute, joe.

unlike the executive branch, laws aren't enacted with the signature of a single senator, or representative.

ya see, those branches are constitutionally required to legislate as a group. passing bills, approving treaties, overriding vetoes . . . all of these are done as a group. the most that can be said is that the senators/representatives have sponsored/opposed/voted for or against certain legislation which eventually became law. credit for any Congressional accomplishment is shared by the group.

this might explain the blank stares, for any candidate. i'd love to see the responses to "what legislation has Obama, McCain, etc. sponsored or supported?" whole different ballgame.

in contrast, with the Mittster (aka Alex Tribeck), he was an executive officer (governor) and can claim "accomplishmnent" for be the final stamp of approval or rejection of specific legislation.

FYI: Obama came aboard half-way through his first Congress (i.e., due to staggered election cycles) so he was a freshmen senator in his first Congress when the Dems were the minority party. in the latest Congress, Obama has sponsored legislation on lobbying reform, election fraud, global warming, nuclear terrorism and improved care and funding the troops returning from combat. not a bad freakin start, IMO.

by the way, whose is your man or women in the race, joe?

[Miss Shark]

The very definition of sheep. And he'll probably win with joiners like this voting him in.



...and that's fine with me!!!!

Do you really think Obama supporters differ from any other candidate in so far as how much they are informed?

....and what he ^ said.

[velvet hustle]

I'm contemplating voting for a 3rd party this year...maybe the Bull Moose. This way no matter who wins between the elephants and donkeys I can complain because my guy is not in office and had he been elected we would not be having these problems.

[ragmop]

i went cafeteria style: obama got the vote, but i voted for all 3 of edwards delegates.

hopefully, the convention is too close to call, and edwards plays kingmaker by making obama move left.

[ragmop]

so, joe . . . which rich, fear-mongering, religious-pandering, white male are you voting for?

[angischy]

so, joe . . . which rich, fear-mongering, religious-pandering, white male are you voting for?

Yes, do tell, I'm all ears!
And more importantly WHY are you voting for him/her/it over any of the others? Inquiring minds want to know.

[Miss Shark]

Mr. C tsk tsk tsk I'm sure that is a joke, but coupled with the above picture, heck even on it's own, it is just plain unfunny.

[Miss Shark]

Where've you been trolling? I know you were joking, but I, not matter what anyone says think some things should never be said even in humor, never ever ever. Perhaps that's another thread all together.

I was surprised Obama didn't get Mass. with the Gov and both Senators backing him. Perhaps ol' Teddy came out too late. No shock Hillary took NY, more of a shock to me just how close it was compared to IL.

I often think how things might've been different had this never happened:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3_xVLeCsGw

[Miss Shark]

What did anyone think of Obama's speach? I thought is was brilliant!

[CaraD.]

so we had an interesting conversation in one of my classes today.
we were disussing Obama, Hilary, and McCain. Here's what my fellow black classmates were saying
"i don't feel comfortable voting for someone who I have a lot of faith in that will probably be assinated because of his skin color."
they all were saying this, and I had thought the same thing. However it was interesting to know that most of my peers felt the same way. They were also saying that they did want to vote for him because they wanted to be apart of that history when the country could have a black president.

so we'll see.

[CaraD.]

after last nights speech, i'm voting for him in the NC primary on may 6th.

[angischy]

Article from The Nation (http://www.thenation.com/doc/20080303/ehrenreich) entitled Unstoppable Obama

Let's take seriously what he offers, which is "change." The promise of "change" is what drives the Obama juggernaut, and "change" means wanting out of wherever you are now. It can even mean wanting out so badly that you don't much care, as in the case of the Ron Paul voters cited above, exactly what that change will be. In reality, there's no mystery about the direction in which Obama might take us: he's written a breathtakingly honest autobiography; he has a long legislative history, and now, a meaty economic program. But no one checks the weather before leaping out of a burning building.

. . .

Obama is different, really different, and that in itself represents "change." A Kenyan-Kansan with roots in Indonesia and multiracial Hawaii, he seems to be the perfect answer to the bumper sticker that says, "I love you America, but isn't it time to start seeing other people?" As conservative commentator Andrew Sullivan has written, Obama's election could mean the re-branding of America. An antiwar black President with an Arab-sounding name: See, we're not so bad after all, world!

So yes, there's a powerful emotional component to Obama-mania, and not just because he's a far more inspiring speaker than his rival. We, perhaps white people especially, look to him for atonement and redemption. All of us, of whatever race, want a fresh start. That's what "change" means right now: Get us out of here!

[Miss Shark]

two Republican Virginians in a row called CSPAN radio to report that they'd just voted for Ron Paul, but, in the general election, would vote for... Obama.

It can even mean wanting out so badly that you don't much care, as in the case of the Ron Paul voters cited above, exactly what that change will be. In reality, there's no mystery about the direction in which Obama might take us: he's written a breathtakingly honest autobiography; he has a long legislative history, and now, a meaty economic program. But no one checks the weather before leaping out of a burning building.

Consider our present situation. Thanks to Iraq and water-boarding, Abu Ghraib and the "rendering" of terror suspects, we've achieved the moral status of a pariah nation. The seas are rising. The dollar is sinking. A growing proportion of Americans have no access to health care; an estimated 18,000 die every year for lack of health insurance. Now, as the economy staggers into recession, the financial analysts are wondering only whether the rest of the world is sufficiently "de-coupled" from the US economy to survive our demise.

Have we heard this before, ala a rags post?

But even more people find dynastic successions distasteful, especially when it's a dynasty that produced so little by way of concrete improvements in our lives.

[ragmop]

Have we heard this before, ala a rags post?



no. but i am thoroughly enjoying the discussion. :)

[angischy]

no. but i am thoroughly enjoying the discussion. :)

But you've done so little discussing on this topic. . . cat got your tongue? :p

'Fraidy cat after so much Mr C hell-raising?

[Miss Shark]

I beg to differ counsler:

Very interesting read. Author sees the forest from the trees:

http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/112707H.shtml

If Hillary Rodham Clinton becomes president, we will see the presidency controlled by two families for the last 24 years.

[ragmop]

But you've done so little discussing on this topic. . . cat got your tongue? :p

'Fraidy cat after so much Mr C hell-raising?

the LAST thing i would ever fear is some rebuke from that, dare i say, gentleman.

matter of time, m'dear. on the list . . . .

[angischy]

the LAST thing i would ever fear is some rebuke from that, dare i say, gentleman.

matter of time, m'dear. on the list . . . .

Gotcha. Of course, just razzin' ya rags

[ragmop]

Gotcha. Of course, just razzin' ya rags

understood, as always. wavelength, remember?

[angischy]

^ How could I forget?

News this morning: Clinton campaign releases economic blueprint (http://www.startribune.com/politics/15726307.html)^

[ragmop]

How could I forget?

News this morning: Clinton campaign releases economic blueprint (http://www.startribune.com/politics/15726307.html)

excellent positioning for debate this thursday. she's a frickin pro at this campaigning.

obama will look inexperienced and unprepared if he doesn't have a similar detailed plan announced before the debate.

say what you will about senator clinton, there is no denying she is a fighter.

[angischy]

say what you will about senator clinton, there is no denying she is a fighter.

Ultimate Fighting, even. Years of practice and experience. I still don't think she'll make it through.
Did Bush I publicly endorse McCain yet?

[angischy]

Read Clinton's full economic blueprint here (http://www.hillaryclinton.com/files/pdf/20080218_economic.pdf).

[ragmop]

thanks angi! it is basically a summary of what she has been proposing on the campaign trail. she is wisely packaging it as a specific response to our current economic woes. not true, as it has more or less been her platform for some time now--with a few tweaks (see the subprime mortgage remedy provisions (which are great).

don't misunderstand--it's great stuff. i particularly LOVE the college incentive package (increase Pell grants, tax credits, OJT, etc), national 401(k) tax credits, FMLA extensions, cessation of tax credits/subsidies to big oil and out-sourcing firms, and green collar job growth plans.

[angischy]

Huckabee was up in your area today, Shark.


Huckabee started the day in western Wisconsin (http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=719437) at a Hudson bagel shop, where admirers urged him to "fight on to the end."

Chip Meyer, 32, of Hudson was wearing a "Chuck for Huck" shirt touting Huckabee's endorsement by actor Chuck Norris.

Meyer thinks Huckabee would make a strong leader and sees trouble ahead for the GOP if McCain is the nominee.

Meyer would vote for McCain in November, but other Republicans would sit home, based on what he's hearing. "There's some apathy out there," Meyer said.

Huckabee was planning to be in Little Rock, Ark., today to watch the election returns. No matter the outcome in Wisconsin, he plans to soldier on to the March 4 primaries, taking his in-need-of-a-miracle campaign to Texas and beyond.


Tons of disgruntled Republicans out there, huh?
Where's Mr C now? He said he was voting for Rudy a while back, now that that's not an option, I wonder where his head's at . . . ?

[doubledown]

score 1 more obama win

whens clinton droppin out?

[angischy]

http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s34/jiveafro/barack_obama-779027-2.png

[ragmop]

If you watch and read this speech (http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/031808A.shtml) and do not conclude the same thing, your EEG is, in a word, flatlining.

Listening and reading his words, in a speech he wrote in the last 2 days, in the midst of campaigning for the high office, I am struck by the utter buffoonery of W that we have endured for the last 8 fucking years. History will not be kind to us, people.

And please, Joe, I have no time for any red-meat, feigned defense of your beloved W. The emperor has no clothes. period.

[tinkerlion]

eric pretty much said the same thing to me today when i got home. after listening i have to agree.

[Miss Shark]

I can't get to all that now, but I will. I think I'm slipping into the dangerous territory of the jaded, near hopeless, always waiting for the other shoe to drop.

[Miss Shark]

May I just add, funny it starts with the preamble. The girls and I have been listening to this in the car a lot this trip (Rags you are likely to be the only other person to remember it): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_TXJRZ4CFc

[harp420]

Just my thought, I am from Chicago. I can honestly say Obama has done NOTHING for Illinois. He was elected on the same type speeches, change etc. Once he got in, he had all these great ideas. He did not follow through on a single one. I am in the Real Estate field, there were some important things he was trying to vote down (one is keeping banks out of the real estate business) but before he had the chance to do anything, he started running for President. When he was on Letterman, before he deceided to run he said "first, my priorites are to the people of Illinois" As it is now, we elected someone who is never there, especially now, all he does is campaign. While I believe he is the best we have to choose from, don't believe the HYPE, he is a total Bull Shit artist. He makes everything sound so good, but honestly, has not made Illinois even 1% of 1% better.

He's the dad who promises to take you to Disney Land but something always comes up.

Thats why I must proclaim, Jimmy Jazz Prescott for President!!!

[ragmop]

i understand your frustration harp. but in my humble opinion, i am not in the least offended by Obama's aspirations which take him away from us here in Illinois.

Analogy? Why thank you! Don't mind if i do:

It's like complaining because your all-star freshmen basketball player is called up to start on the varsity squad. Yeah it's true he does nothing for the freshmen squad, but he's needed on the one squad where it matters the most.

Just a thought.

[angischy]

I can't get to all that now, but I will. I think I'm slipping into the dangerous territory of the jaded, near hopeless, always waiting for the other shoe to drop.

I'm sure you're not alone there Shark.
I watched the movie Bobby a few weeks ago, about Bobby Kennedy, and the palpable hope in the air can't help but feel like a bubble about to burst, especially when you look at history, but that was a long time ago. Aren't we due for some hope that actually pays off?

Fear not.

[angischy]

For those of you who couldn't be bothered to read or view the whole speech, here's a key part, a mission statement if you will:

". . . We have a choice in this country. We can accept a politics that breeds division, and conflict, and cynicism. We can tackle race only as spectacle - as we did in the OJ trial - or in the wake of tragedy, as we did in the aftermath of Katrina - or as fodder for the nightly news. We can play Reverend Wright's sermons on every channel, every day and talk about them from now until the election, and make the only question in this campaign whether or not the American people think that I somehow believe or sympathize with his most offensive words. We can pounce on some gaffe by a Hillary supporter as evidence that she's playing the race card, or we can speculate on whether white men will all flock to John McCain in the general election regardless of his policies.

We can do that.

But if we do, I can tell you that in the next election, we'll be talking about some other distraction. And then another one. And then another one. And nothing will change.

That is one option. Or, at this moment, in this election, we can come together and say, "Not this time." This time we want to talk about the crumbling schools that are stealing the future of black children and white children and Asian children and Hispanic children and Native American children. This time we want to reject the cynicism that tells us that these kids can't learn; that those kids who don't look like us are somebody else's problem. The children of America are not those kids, they are our kids, and we will not let them fall behind in a 21st century economy. Not this time.

This time we want to talk about how the lines in the Emergency Room are filled with whites and blacks and Hispanics who do not have health care; who don't have the power on their own to overcome the special interests in Washington, but who can take them on if we do it together.

This time we want to talk about the shuttered mills that once provided a decent life for men and women of every race, and the homes for sale that once belonged to Americans from every religion, every region, every walk of life. This time we want to talk about the fact that the real problem is not that someone who doesn't look like you might take your job; it's that the corporation you work for will ship it overseas for nothing more than a profit.

This time we want to talk about the men and women of every color and creed who serve together, and fight together, and bleed together under the same proud flag. We want to talk about how to bring them home from a war that never should've been authorized and never should've been waged, and we want to talk about how we'll show our patriotism by caring for them, and their families, and giving them the benefits they have earned.

I would not be running for President if I didn't believe with all my heart that this is what the vast majority of Americans want for this country. This union may never be perfect, but generation after generation has shown that it can always be perfected. And today, whenever I find myself feeling doubtful or cynical about this possibility, what gives me the most hope is the next generation - the young people whose attitudes and beliefs and openness to change have already made history in this election."

[Miss Shark]

Bingo...The dust is a swirlin and we ain't got no Do-Re-Mi to even gain entrance to the fantasy.

[angischy]

Are you all still in love with Obama? Seriously? I think the only way I could vote for him is if someone was holding a pistol to my temple.

Go Hillary!

For the record, I use the phrase "in love" sparingly, and never with politicians.

Can you back up your opinion with any reasons, Mr C, or do you lack the ability to articulate your political leanings at this time?
I am curious where your head is at with this election, and I would like to hear more than the nah-nah-na-boo-boo antics you usually resort to. This election is a serious thing, and I'm confident that you have more thoughtful comments to share.

Door's open . . . of course, I'm not putting a pistol to your head, though. Is that really what's needed to get you talking sense?

[angischy]

Is this a serious question?

Of course.

Who are you voting for and more importantly, why?

[ragmop]

Are you all still in love with Obama? Seriously? . . .

A rhetorical question, capable of being posed to any voter about any candidate, whose answer necessarily is rooted in emotion (i.e., it neither fosters debate, nor furthers discussion of, the issues.

as in . . . "are you still in love with your wife, joe? seriously?"

[angischy]

A rhetorical question, capable of being posed to any voter about any candidate, whose answer necessarily is rooted in emotion (i.e., it neither fosters debate, nor furthers discussion of, the issues.

as in . . . "are you still in love with your wife, joe? seriously?"

I have yet to see Mr C discuss any of the issues.
This isn't a game show, let's see some substance, please!

And while we're at it, Gimme Some Truth (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5QoHwSzmR4)

[harp420]

I know what your saying Mop. Its a valid point. The mere fact that 2 minorities are running and have an excellent chance of winning says volumes about the horrible job George W. has done. I think one thing we can all agree on, is that Bush is the worst president in American History.

Obama is an honest guy. His intentions are pure, while I question Hillary's as she is motivated more by power than making a positive change.

I think Obama would be wise to use G.loves Unified in his campaign. (with the awesome harp intro) But, G. would have to rerecord, because the world IS ready. And yes.. it would be so nice... yo.

[angischy]

I think Obama would be wise to use G.loves Unified in his campaign. (with the awesome harp intro) But, G. would have to rerecord, because the world IS ready. And yes.. it would be so nice... yo.

:p

[doubledown]

Go Hillary!

go rush limbaugh sheep!
-go far away-

mccain is so gonna be the next prez

da dems r fuckin themselves 1 more time :mad: when will they learn?

[angischy]

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a99/angischy/graphix/sheeple.jpg
That does seem to be true doubledown. :eek: How come this always happens?
I'm not giving up hope, yet, however!

[CaraD.]

was in my neighborhood today. greensboro, nc.
hilary will be here tomorrow, well at the community college west campus. which is just a building. Barack got the townhall.

hmmm. i would have gone but tickets ran out as soon as it was annouced. i bet some people tried to sell that junk on craigslist.

[angischy]

. . . is on The View today, i.e. right now in my time zone.
Not a fan of that show, but I've paused my channel-flipping, for the moment.

[Miss Shark]

Is it really over? Will the super delegates come marching two by two supporting Obama? I hope so.

[Miss Shark]

yes, no, no, no/no/fair?, she's still behind, never, no, my way, & yes!

You're welcome.

[ragmop]

Hmm. I need more detail Miss S.

Maybe Ragmop will engage me.

yes, no, no, no/no/fair?, she's still behind, never, no, my way, & yes!

[ragmop]

1. This is about money. Never before has, (however, now I expect always will) a second place candidate that is mathematically out of contention been (and will be) treated as a viable candidate for the nomination. This horserace is being driven by advertising dollars generated by the ad nauseum 24/7 blitzkrieg by the national media.

2. This is about false political bases. The media paints Hillary supporters as Democrats. And some are life-long diehard always-vote-for-a-Dem Democrats. However, a large portion of these voters haven't voted for a Democrat for years, if ever--nor would they if they had a viable Repub alternative. Hillary supporters look like Repubs (white, affluent), act like Repubs (vote Repub), and talk like repubs (Soc Security needs overhauling). So when you see the stat that 30% of Hillary primary voters won't vote for Obama, the media wants you to "gasp!" and believe that is somehow "trouble" for the Dems, because diehard Dems are pulling away because of Obama. Newsflash: they vote for Hillary because she lines up conservatively (like them) and she isn't as hawkish (or economically challenged) as John McCain and she isn't Obama. Obama never had a shot at getting those 30%--EVER. His net loss is 0%. The die hards are voting for Obama. The right-leaning Dems (and cross-over Repubs) are voting for Hillary.

3. Race is intertwined here. Why didn't we see the media have any success at generating interest in the Huckabee-is-mathematicallly-out-of-it-but-still-has-a-chance drama? You didn't even realize that they even did that, did you? That's because the media didn't do it. At all. And Huckabee stayed in. Go check your stuff. So why didn't they try to spark interest in a McCain/Huckabee horse race? My take? Well, it's tough to foment resentment in a blue collar racist when the only 2 candidates left are rich white guys. A racist sees the white guys and says "number 2 is mathematically out of it--who wants to watch that?!" However, whisper in a racist's ear that "Hillary still has a chance! Hillary has a chance! ya never know anything could happen between now and August!"--well, well, you might just just spark a little optimism in that racist that he still has a chance to keep from having a black man as his next president.

4. Florida and Michigan should be split according to the proportion of the national primaries. Stop whining Florida and Michigan! The DNC would be within their rights to DQ all y'all MFing votes. EVERY Dem who voted in those two states KNEW FOR WEEKS BEFORE THEY SET FOOT IN THAT BOOTH that the primaries violated the DNC rules and the DNC was not going to count the votes or seat the delegates. In my line of work, you waive your right to object to the consequences if you have prior knowledge and notice of the rule. Eg.: Sign says: "Trespassers will be shot on sight" Trespasser trespasses, and gets shot. Then he sues the landowner, crying that he should not have been shot. Mr. C, verdict please? ANY compromise that gives those 2 states ANY weight or representation at the convention IS A FREAKING GIFT THAT SHOULD BE WELCOMED WITH OPEN ARMS--not protested, as Hillary has now announced her supporters will do.

[stricken]

I don't really care to have a President with war experience. Just sayin'.

[ragmop]

Mr C:

Mathematically. She. Can't. Win. The. Delegate. Count.

The republican wet dreams are premised soley upon this wing and a prayer: that the superdelegates will look at the candidate with a) the most pledged delegates, b) the most popular votes, c) the biggest campaign coffer, and d) the biggest donor base and say "Um, not bad, Mr. Junior Senator, but we're gonna give it to the little lady instead".

In other words, ignore the facts and repeat the mantra: "if this happens, and then that happens, then maybe, possibly, Hillary could win!" Only in this brain dead, "eat-the-garbage-they-feed-you-from-that-TV-tube" nation can such bullshit fly.

The staus quo has to be turned on its head for Hillary to get the nod. And in order for that to happen, you have to compromise your integrity by acting like Michigan and Florida were just perfectly ordinary primaries which are worthy of full merit and consideration.

So please cling to your fantasies, Mr. C. I choose to live in the realm of reality. As long as you, the repubs and the media premise your entire argument on "what ifs", no RATIONALE conversation can be held. For you start with the premise that Obama's scenario and Hillary's scenario start out on equal footing. And the reality is, they don't. Your lady is behind in every vaild metric.

But damn, don't it make for drama when we bring it to you 24/7, every day: "Can she win this? She's such a fighter! She's not out of it if he gets assassinated!"

And as for Grandpa McSame . . . check his voting record on GWB endorsed/sponsored legislation since 2004: 100%. C'mon y'all, chant with me: "Four more years! Four More years!"

[ragmop]

i miss nothing of your posts, bro, including the following, which is what i was addressing:

". . . . With Hillary still winning primaries, gaining a few delegates each time, and Obama not having enough delegates to be declared the winner, why would she drop out? Also, if all the superdelegates had voted for Hillary, she still could have gotten the nomination. So to say she is (was) out of contention 100% isn't the case. Until all the superdelegate votes are in she technically has (had) a chance to win."

if, if, if . . . . and if martians landed and took over our electoral process . . . .

[stricken]

Obamarama has the same experience we all have. The experience of the last eight years. Add a background heavy in Consitutional Law a kind heart you don't have to look past his sleeve to see.

We actually have a shot at world peace WITHIN OUR LIFETIMES!

Wake up. Don't be that guy voting against.

Furthermore, in my opinion, McCain is just another fuckin' parasite.

Peace. Out.

[stricken]

I actually truly believe it. You know what? It's people that actually believe it that are going to make it happen. You have to seek it. Start it. Part of me wants to call you an asshole just for questioning it. A much bigger part of me wants to give you a hug.

[stricken]

I suppose that is what I'm saying. Wouldn't that be awesome? What I'm really saying is that we should stop giving other nation's wars energy. What I'm saying is: if our President was in a situation where a peace pipe was being passed around, I would like for him to take a hit and inhale. We can stop being the big ugly. It's a damn apocalypse right now. Apocalypse simply means a change in the way of what currently is. We've had enough. Enough of war, hate, disease, the dollar.

Be the change you want to see in the world.

My daughter is 17 and, being the cool mom, I am around her friends plenty. The "emo" or "straight edge" kids. Sure, they have their opinions. However, they will talk your face off. Sometimes, their minds can be changed if time spent. They WANT to talk about it. That's more than I get from anyone my own age.

She has a friend she says "is such an environmentalist, he's fucking annoying". That kid. That kid is helping change happen.

Be the change you want to see in the world.

Decide that you love everyone you meet in some capacity. Please.

What is the name of this thread? Obama in 08!

[ragmop]

All I am pointing out is that there are legitimate reasons why Hillary is staying in, no matter how unlikely those scenarios are, and you are trying to blame it on racism and the Republicans.

"legitimate: accordant with law or with established legal forms and requirements."

That definition would apply to neither Michigan or Florida primaries. Yet those primaries' results serve as a basis for your girl's "legitimate reasons". What a fecking hypocrite--you and Hillary.

Blame it on racism? I didn't realize that I wrote that. Oh yeah. I didn't. Class, let's review: 1. Money, 2. false base, 3. element of racism. Those are in descending order, class. That would mean the first two rank higher in import and impact. Please Joe--quote honestly.

Blame it on Republicans? Acknowledging that many Repubs have a hard-on to have McSame run against Hillary does not equate with me holding the Republicans responsible for this Dem fight--something I have yet to find that I alleged in any of my posts.

[stricken]

Racisim, Shmacism. That's just stupid.

[ragmop]

3. Race is intertwined here.

actually there is the quote . . . .

but i do apologize. i consulted my english-to-Mr. C dictionary and that quote does actually translate to "It's all about racism."

:)

[Miss Shark]

http://forum.philadelphonic.com/showthread.php?t=5050&highlight=hillary

snicker snicker...

and I stick with my first answers.

[Miss Shark]

Are you sure it's not more like 1001 times?

[ragmop]

<sigh> ragmop has plenty of negative to say about one Dem: Hillary. Rather than prattle on about her, I can condense it down to this:

We've had 8 years of Orwellian word-smithing: war-is-peace, up-is-down, global-warming-is-a-hoax-so-long-as-I-repeat-that-mantra-over-and-over, failure-is-success, enhanced-interrogation, etc.

Hillary's perversion of the MI and FL primaries, and her ever-changing attempt to re-define the nomination metrics are pages ripped straight from the current administration's playbook. (Delegates don't matter--only superdelegates! Popular votes are all that matter! Momentum over the last 45 days is all that matters! Electability is all that matters! If he gets assassinated is all that matters!) Am I the only one that is tired of this constant insult to our intelligence? Girl, lose with or without grace. The choice is yours. Any bet on which route she's taking?

And one final note: "Racism, Schmacism?" I am waiting for some meat and potatoes on that one from either Mr. C or Stricken. Mocking incredulously at my suggestion that race is intertwined here doesn't counter my argument--at all. (As in "global warming is a looney hoax!") Mocking the remise simply attempts to stop all discussion. (See we all learned something from the past 8 years!) I am honest enough to admit that there are racist MFers in this country--some right here in my town, some who are even my clients--who will vote for a hot steamy pile of shit before they would cast a ballot for a black man.

Or did I miss the news that, like polio, all racism has been cured in this country? Sorry. I must have overslept that day.

(p.s.: I can hear Mr. C already, " I didn't SAY that NO racism was involved, YOU just were blaming everything on racism" . . . and the sand continues to shift . . . and blah, fecking blah . . .)

[stricken]

Meat + Potatoes = if you don't look at it, it will go away. Kill 'em with kindness, Ragmop.

[ragmop]

Meat + Potatoes = if you don't look at it, it will go away. Kill 'em with kindness, Ragmop.

my silence = tacit approval of the faulty premise.

if i don't look at it it will go away for me. it will never go away completely, for a black heart will always see it. and there are many black hearts. same reason you'll never see world peace.

gotta call them on it. knock 'em outta of their comfort zone. challenge them to validate their faulty premise.

[Miss Shark]

I don't see it happening either.

[ragmop]

OH YEAH! I forgot about this little topic...

Obama/Clinton '08

^^^ Thoughts on that? It's being hinted at, A LOT.

IMO Barack Hussein would be nuts to have her on the ticket. Having her and Bill looking over his shoulder, involved, etc.? No way.

bring it.

[Miss Shark]

Lessing her chances even more.

[Miss Shark]

A rift in the Obama household?


No rift. I didn't say I was against it, I said I didn't think it would happen. I don't think that rags and I could match any closer on the issues.

[ragmop]

I don't think that rags and I could match any closer on the issues.

:)

Amen, Rebecca. Amen . . .

[ragmop]

http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i202/Cleanface/colognevagrant.gif

;)

"I love it when you end posts with little jabs like this. It's dreamy. :o"

:cool:

[Miss Shark]

http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i202/Cleanface/colognevagrant.gif



;)

What is that, a gang?

[angischy]

Barack Obama is going to pick his running mate very soon and wants you to be the first to know. The presumptive Democratic canidate for president, plans to inform supporters who his choice is for vice president via a text message on their cell phones.
Supporters can sign up online (http://my.barackobama.com/page/s/firsttoknow), or by simply texting the word VP to 62262 from your cell phone.
http://i37.tinypic.com/bhdk40.jpg

[ragmop]

it's Biden . . . as in Bite Him (McSame, that is)

[Miss Shark]

it's Biden . . . as in Bite Him (McSame, that is)

And bite he shall. Figured he'd go with someone outside of the midwest.

[angischy]

And bite he shall.
Speaking of biting (someone)...
Mister C, as much as I love you (sometimes), what the phuck, dude?
I get it, "Boo Obama, Boo Biden" is your war cry, but seriously?!?
Don't drip vitriol all over our forum, please!

Seriously.

Let's have intelligent debate and conversation, not just mud-slinging, shit-talking political wrestling, ok?
Please?

Thanks.

p.s. Dear moderators that we don't really have,
We desperately need a "shaking fist" smiley. One of those that says "oooh, I'll get you for that one." Please? Thanks, again. :p

[ragmop]

Mr. C:

Thoughts on Biden?

1. pennsylvania
2. intelligent debater
3. more foreign relations experience than EITHER candidate
4. smart-ass (so you know i love him)

p.s.: he dropped out before IL primary. had my vote before that.

p.s.s.: as for your complaint about the vitiolic hate spewed by lefties around here, your premise is flawed. your inference is that the lefties possess blind faith and trust in obama, AND that the current administration is a 50/50. that is that it has equal number of merits and faults to discuss and debate. unfortunately, by any metric you use to measure this administration, it is deeply flawed (and dare i say corrupt?). the number of complaints and the intensity of these complaints around here is a function of the magnitude of the flaws and corruption, and NOT the result of blind love of obama.

this administration will NOT be viewed kindly by history. pick your metric (again with that word--WTF ragmop?): economics, foreign relations, domestic policies (read, spying on americans), privatization of the commons, constitutional compliance . . . and on and on.

[the duke]

in my two cents that probably doesn't belong here, cuz i don't vote, love the name hilldawg...very funny.

[angischy]

p.s.s.: as for your complaint about the vitiolic hate spewed by lefties around here, your premise is flawed. your inference is that the lefties possess blind faith and trust in obama . . . the number of complaints and the intensity of these complaints around here is a function of the magnitude of the flaws and corruption, and NOT the result of blind love of obama.


Bingo, bango, bongo!

"The only one I trust is my mother". . . And the only thing I've ever put blind faith in is.....hmmm, nothing?
No, take that back...Blind Faith...ugh, maybe I did put blind faith in a chance at love when I was a bit younger and not quite as guarded. But even then, as today, tummy rumbles!

Anyways, sure, I am not happy with Bush as a President, but my life is not about slamming him. It's not just his fault that things are as they are.

I do want a better leader next time around.
The ideal candidate will never exist. The ideal presidency will never exist.
It's not an easy job, and I sure as hell wouldn't want it.
But I do want a President of the United States who wants the job, and makes me feel proud to be an American.
Things need to get a whole ton better, not worse. I want a Commander-In-Chief whose picture I can smile at as I pass, and one that I don't have to bite my tongue and just say nothing about for the next 4+ years...

[Miss Shark]

I missed the speeches last night. Arg.....

[Miss Shark]

Freudian slip.......

[angischy]

Freudian slip.......

:confused:

[Miss Shark]

Biden called McCain George during his acceptance speach and said it was a Freudian Slip.

Biden, who has a penchant for verbal gaffes, made a slip of his own, but one that earned wild laughter as Biden mistook President Bush for McCain.

“You know, folks, that’s the America that George Bush has left us. And that’s the America we’ll continue to get if George - excuse me, if John McCain is elected president of the United States of America. Freudian slip. Freudian slip,” he said.

[sauce.baby]

LOLS!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J9pnzQ96kWA

It's a joke, right? SOMEONE tell me it's a joke..

[ragmop]

It's no joke. And yet, at the same time it is a joke.

And so much for the "change" Grandpa McSame and Palin offer. They've watched and learned over the past 8 years that if you can't beat your opponent on the issues, just lie:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080904/ap_on_el_pr/cvn_fact_check

[angischy]

A friend and I were talking politics this morning. Though a staunch Dem who'll be voting for Obama, he kinda thinks she's hot...
I see this: http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i294/serr8d/elected%20politicos/SarahPalin_sm.jpg http://shopseinfeld.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/elaine_benes035.jpg

[sauce.baby]

I'm curious as to what everyone thinks about the current sideshow that is her daughter's life..

[ragmop]

. . . . You Libs are shaking in your boots.


now THAT is funny!

as for her speech at the pep rally, i would have preferred the truth. but hey, she's a republican--what's a little truth-bending among friends. (see previous post).

i will say that the cult of personality media seems overly excited (which IMO is bordering on the verge of a full-fledged erection) over this VP candidate.

"But Betty, she just has such a fascinating story!" (So does Obama, McCain and Biden)

"And she's so good looking!" (As are McCain, Obama and Biden--for their ages)

"And she's a hockey mom!" (And McCain and Biden are dads of servicemen, Obama's girls have extra-cirricular activities I'm sure)

"And she's articulate and a go-getter!) (As are McCain, Obama and Biden)

You see where I'm going with this? We can waste oxygen and time talking about the Redbook/People/Glamour/Us superficialities all day, sheeples. Until you hold these freakin' crooks feet to the fire on what they will do with: healthcare, iraq, iran, employmment, education, infrastructure, taxes, environmental issues, etc. they are nothing.

[ragmop]

joe, one question (because I'm fascinated at what a political candidate needs to do in your book to clear the "home run" bar in a political speech):

Q: what made her speech a "home run"? (specifics please):

[sauce.baby]

LOLS again!
Experience? From what? Being the mayor of a small town (around 7, 000) and governor for only 2 years of freaking ALASKA? Harboring the troubles of a small town, and then the state of Alaska doesn’t really put you in touch with the reality most Americans face. (Not slighting anyone from Alaska, I’m just saying most of America lives in the Continental, most of America live in more populace areas, which brings a whole different set of troubles/advantages, etc).

What about the allegations of power abuse?

And I'm so not feeling the anti-choice [even in cases of rape and incest [haha (http://digg.com/2008_us_elections/Palin_opposes_abortion_even_in_cases_of_RAPE_or_IN CEST/p.jpg)], anti-science, pro-gay marriage ban, pro-death penalty and being all for teaching creationism in schools [church and state wha?].

*facepalm*

[sauce.baby]

Actually, I don't lean in any direction. I just call it how I see it. I post in the Obama thread because it seems to be the reigning political thread anymore.

And I'm still not convinced that standing at the podium making snarky remarks about the opponents is something to applaud. No matter what side does it. When people have discussions in here and someone starts making low blows, they get called out for it, not praised and deemed a fearless kickass.

[sweet p]

alright, this is PROBABLY the only post i will put on the "political" thread, since to me it is something people can debate-FOREVER b/c, well, it's politics and EVERYONE feels a certain way.
i am a registered democrat, but i was having a tough time early on as to voting for Obama. well, as soon as it was announced who McCain's running mate was-killed any chance of me possibly voting for McCain-and this is why.
I FELT INSULTED AT THE FACT THAT HE CHOSE A WOMAN!! AND I'M A WOMAN!!
I felt he did it as a way of thinking he could get the women's vote and he needed some kind of an "edge". guess what, i vote for the issues-not just b/c she has boobs and a vagina like me!! Ummm...us females run a little deeper than that!
i mean, seriously-she came out of left field and i don't even know if she was on the LONG list of possible running mates. it just seems like a last ditch effort to add some spark to what seems to me (and i hope) to be an inevitable loss for the republicans. I also think it's ironic that both McCain and Palin squashed funding for sex education in schools; which would teach contraception and now Palin's 17 year old is preggers. but McCain is against same sex marriage(don't know Palin's stance, nor do I really care). so let's have teens running around getting pregnant and having babies before they are even old enough to vote, but let's deny ADULTS who love each other, from being able to marry and enjoying benefits of having a spouse. to me, that's just fucked up thinking.
I know how I'm voting-it's OBAMA for me in November and i can't wait. we are long overdue for a GOOD change-enough of this bullshit Bush presidency(f-ing asshole) and i'm just afraid if it goes to McCain-it truly is going to be more of the same (sorry to sound like a commercial spot).
And I will end with this...NO MATTER WHO YOU VOTE FOR, JUST GO OUT AND VOTE! ....and, oh yeah- OBAMA in '08!!
Have a great night, Phamily!

[ragmop]

Joe-

This is why i am so discouraged. The media has made our presidential race a beauty pageant. Almost all of your points and authorities for why she hit a "home run" focus on her as a person and not on the merits of her qualifications and accomplishments.

To summarize your points why it was a home run:

1. She was able to give a speech to a large audience.
2. She was a made to be a victim of media scrutiny and public skepticism (and I smile at a conservative like you playing the victim card).
3. She was poised, strong and confident (note that I left out that she was "ready to face the challenge" as this is a conclusion and assumes qualifications that you haven't yet disclosed).
4. She told her life story and gave good jabs at Obama.
5. She didn't fall apart, she is self-aware, and has strong beliefs and strong values.

I can assure you the above statements could apply to many past Miss Americas winners, or MCs of the Oscars. Check it out. Am I right? That does not qualify them, IMO to be VP. Other names that meet your list of qualifications: Magic Johnson, Mel Gibson, Robert Downey Jr., Rosie O'Donnell, Oprah.

And I have said this before: it all depends upon what kind of world you wake up to. I wake up expecting more of a VP than just your list of qualifications.

Joe Biden has over 30 years of senatorial legislative experience. He has foreign policy and diplomatic experience out his ass. He has served on the Senate Judiciary Committee and been involved in the confirmation hearings for our country's Supreme Court Justices and Attorney Generals. It is insulting to listen to your cheerleaders actually suggest that Palin has more executive experience that all candidates because she was a mayor and then a governor for 2 years (in a state with a population less than most major US cities).

The VP selection process is perhaps the most undemocratic process in our Constitution. The president is elected. Supreme Court Justices and Attorney general are subject to confirmation hearings by our representatives. However, the VP can assume (and has assumed) the presidency without any such scrutiny. And with Grandpa McSame being the oldest potential president, it IS an issue worth examining. It is our freaking DUTY to scrutinize her NOW, not when she's being sworn in after Grandpa falls and doesn't get back up.

Contort yourself all you want, Joe. She doesn't match up in qualifications with any VP candidate in the last 100 years. The time and energy alone that you guys are expending trying to convince us of her "experience" betrays this fact.

Last point: You're right, Biden wasn't subjected to this frenzy. Nobody suggested he wasn't qualified. Not because of "media bias" or because he is a "media darling". It was because his qualifications spoke for themselves. Hers don't. Hence the intensity of the scrutiny.

[Miss Shark]

I'm with sweet p on this one. It reeks of desperation.

[the duke]

it's funny cuz that's the 1st thing I thought of sweet p and miss Shark, he's doing it to try and get the Hilary voters...but you're right, they've underestimated women, which i think is a kick in the pants.

I always wonder though, whether compulsory voting works better or voluntary voting...cuz obviously if you feel strongly you'll vote and elect the person who everyone feels strongly about, but on the other hand, if you have compulsory voting, more people will vote.

[the duke]

oh, and I'd just like to point out my opinion...I think all politicians are as bad as each other...sometimes i don't think it matters who you vote for, everyone will eventually be screwed.

[Miss Shark]

Sweet P - I don;t think anybody was expecting you to vote for Palin just because she is a woman. You really shouldn't feel that way. Only a stupid person would think women would vote for her for only that reason, and like them or not, the GOP spinsters are not stupid. She's not going to pull any of Hillary's hardcore supporters because those women are very pro-choice, and she is very pro-life. She may pull some that are still pissed at Obama, but I don't think that will be very many.



Do you really honestly believe that is true?

I do respect your conviction Mr. C.

[Miss Shark]

I guess it's because Obama is the first mainstream African-American who is articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking guy.

I hope that is a joke?!?!?!?

[Miss Shark]

I'm just gonna shake my head and walk away now.

[ragmop]

"I already said I like Biden, I just don't understand why he isn't your #1 instead of #2. I guess it's because Obama is the first mainstream African-American who is articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking guy."

well, your political analysis is definitely consistent, joe. all fluff, no substance.

[ragmop]

Matt -

Your question to me was what impressed me about her speech and what made it a 'Home Run?' Not, 'what qualifications do you look for in a VP?' You changed your question after I answered.....

I do think she is underqualified, and I do think there were better choices out there. However, I think Obama is just as underqualified, if not more, and he is your #1!



I didn't change anything. I was pointing out that the words YOU CHOSE to describe your enthusiastic conclusion that it was a home run were not words of qualification. They were words describing her personality and life story.

And please stop with the republican talking points. Fecking "underqualified". Highly educated and intelligent (Harvard Law and Harvard Law Review, Civil rights attorney and Constitutional law professor). And since when does 8 fecking years of your life as a State Senator mean nothing? Oh that's right, if your party omits that shit from its talking point, lemmings like you walk around ignorant of the facts.

He created the Illinois Earned Income Tax Credit, sponsored and lobbied for an expansion of early childhood education, and for legislation that required the videotaping of interrogations and confessions in all capital cases.

And he isn't the black kid in the back of the class sleeping in the US Senate either. As a member of the Veterans' Affairs Committee, he fought to help Illinois veterans get the disability pay, and VA reform. He has actually travelled to Russia (not looked at it from across the Bering Straits) with Republican Dick Lugar for non-proliferation negotiations and verification.

When did we start fearing the smartest kid in the room? When was being intelligent or educated a political liability? Oh that's right, if your party tells you to call the educated "elitests" instead, lemmings like you walk around belittling any politician who is educated.

[ragmop]

Wait.

What part are you criticizing here as fluff? My question about Biden being #2 instead of #1, or my description of Obama?

you seemed to suggest that the 18 million who voted for obama in the primaries chose him b/c he is "the first mainstream African-American who is articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking guy." You're suggesting that he is our no. 1 for reasons connected to "fluff." same suggestion you make regarding Palin. consistent political analysis. that's all. it's fluff that matters. and you're in good company. the media is right there with you.

[greengirlie]

...this whole thread is the exact reason why I have my list of three things I don't talk about with the people I love...
1. My faith/religion
2. POLITICS
3. My partying/drug/sexual past

causes too many disagreements and everyone is going to percieve ideas and situations different than me... and i hope y'all aren't really mad at each other and are just debating b/c i love y'all.

[ragmop]

...this whole thread is the exact reason why I have my list of three things I don't talk about with the people I love...
1. My faith/religion
2. POLITICS
3. My partying/drug/sexual past

causes too many disagreements and everyone is going to percieve ideas and situations different than me... and i hope y'all aren't really mad at each other and are just debating b/c i love y'all.

hey greengirlie!

excellent point. those 3 areas tend to be the most subjective and emotional. you're probably the wisest amongst us to avoid them all. but no worries it's all rainbows, unicorns and care bears around here. no haters. just debaters. and i gotta say, Mr. C is one master bater . . . . . i mean debater. :)

so who you voting for? . . . . don't answer that! ;)

[ragmop]

I didn't change anything. I was pointing out that the words YOU CHOSE to describe your enthusiastic conclusion that it was a home run were not words of qualification. They were words describing her personality and life story.

And please stop with the republican talking points. Fecking "underqualified". Highly educated and intelligent (Harvard Law and Harvard Law Review, Civil rights attorney and Constitutional law professor). And since when does 8 fecking years of your life as a State Senator mean nothing? Oh that's right, if your party omits that shit from its talking point, lemmings like you walk around ignorant of the facts.

He created the Illinois Earned Income Tax Credit, sponsored and lobbied for an expansion of early childhood education, and for legislation that required the videotaping of interrogations and confessions in all capital cases.

And he isn't the black kid in the back of the class sleeping in the US Senate either. As a member of the Veterans' Affairs Committee, he fought to help Illinois veterans get the disability pay, and VA reform. He has actually travelled to Russia (not looked at it from across the Bering Straits) with Republican Dick Lugar for non-proliferation negotiations and verification.

When did we start fearing the smartest kid in the room? When was being intelligent or educated a political liability? Oh that's right, if your party tells you to call the educated "elitests" instead, lemmings like you walk around belittling any politician who is educated.

is it just me who hears nothing but crickets chirping in response here?.....

[ragmop]

It seems Ragmop is kindof flipping his lid a little, but it's understandable. I told you the Libs are shaking in their boots because of Sarah Barracuda, and he is lashing out accordingly.

English to Republican translations:

1. timetable for troop withdrawals = "aspirational time horizon"

2. ending the iraq occupation = "return on success"

3. supporting G. W. Bush legislative agenda 90% of the time = "maverick"

4. dispelling Republican talking points = "flipping lid"

5. revealing Palin's inexperience = "shaking in their boots"

6. utilizing "stop loss" provision in servicemen's contracts after active duty date in order to extract multiple tours in iraq/afghanistan = "supporting the troops"

7. up = "down"

8. african-american = "inexperienced"

[ragmop]

Actually the question was:


Q: what made her speech a "home run"? (specifics please):

Don't get pissed at me because you chose to pick out all her fluff (and not substance) as the reasons for such an enthusiastic conclusion about her speech.

I guess I should say that the Repubs are "shaking in their shoes" over this pick because of her inexperience. And that you are "flipping your lid a little" over any criticism about your darling Palin, "which is understandable."

Semantics. They go both ways.

[ragmop]

That is fucked up and way out of line Ragmop.

Seriously. That is sad.

Wait, are you referring to my post about BHO being a clean and articulate and mainstream African-American?

one more:

9. pointing out the obvious = "fucked up and way out of line" and "sad"

Sorry to make you "flip your lid a little". Truth hurts sometimes.

[ragmop]

All I have said is that I would put her (Mayor > Governor) EXECUTIVE experience against Obama's (State Legislature > Senator for 142 days > Run for President) LEGISLATIVE experience any day.

and right there, my friend, is where we forever part company. you'll never crossing the bridge to my side or even meet me in the middle on this issue. and vice versa.

i'll never agree that being a mayor of a village in BFE and the governor of a state of less than most Major US cities somehow qualifies you to be on an international stage and potential commander-in-chief. sorry. that's just the world view i wake up to.

[ragmop]

.... 'the office of President does not lend itself to on the job training,' . . . .

and i would submit that the same holds true for the office of the Vice President.

[sauce.baby]

Do you think that statement is out of line or something?

Seriously, tell me what's wrong with me using those adjectives to decribe Obama.

I think they are pretty spot on.
I think it was this part:
first mainstream

[sweet p]

o.k. so i was wrong...i'm posting another


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Cleanface
I guess it's because Obama is the first mainstream African-American who is articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking guy.


Mr. C. seriously?? i won't speak for anyone else, but MY problem with this statement is this: You are basically saying Obama is the FIRST(and to me meaning the ONLY, past and present) African-American who is articulate, bright, clean and nice looking. REALLY? I can think of quite a few before him who fit those qualities and i hope that you should be able to do the same.

At least after McCain's speech last night, i will say that whoever becomes President; at least they can speak the english language, unlike our Master's from Yale idiot-in-power, now. I also felt McCain's speech was a snoozer. I could barely keep my eyes open and was thinking I could muster up more enthusiasm from my turd than this guy was showing!

Palin is pro-life (which by the way, I LOVE how for a woman it always comes down to the abortion issue-didn't I say us women run a little deeper than that??) But why then, if she's pro-life, did she hide the fact of this life growing in her belly to her co-workers for so long? Then when she found out that the baby had down-syndrome, she kept that fact from her OWN children? To me that's one of two things-selfishness or shame.

Last nights speech did nothing to change my feelings at all. I'm sticking with the man who's speech left me in tears and had me standing up and applauding in my own living room; feeling hopeful for the future of the people of the United States.

[sauce.baby]

i'll never agree that being a mayor of a village in BFE
She couldn't even do that on her own. (http://theangryblackwoman.wordpress.com/2008/09/04/an-insiders-look-at-palins-qualifications-oris-the-horse-dead-yet/)

During her mayoral administration most of the actual work of running
this small city was turned over to an administrator. She had been
pushed to hire this administrator by party power-brokers after she had
gotten herself into some trouble over precipitous firings which had
given rise to a recall campaign.

[ragmop]

okay, so far this population of this here Obama Nation has reps in the north (shark), southwest (sauce), the midwest (rags) and the southeast (sweet p).

those in the northeast, northwest and south, we are looking in your direction....:)

[harp420]

I just have to wonder, how the hell can someone with 5 kids, one of which is "special needs" give up her family and run for vice-president? I saw her schedule for the next 2 months, and she will probably not spend more than 2 hours with her kids. The first "dude" as he is called doesn't look like he can tie his own shoelaces, and to be married to her in the first place, I am sure he gets whipped around that house.

I am all for family first. especially if you have someone who has special needs and a 17 year old who is pregnant. They need a mother at this time in their lives, the kids are being held up and on display by the republican party. I wonder how long the 17 year old will stay married? It's horrible parenting.

Put aisde the fact that I disagree with 99% of what McCain & Palin believe in (hunting, abortion, same sex wedding, medical mary jane, the environment, war in Iraq) what I disagree with most is pulling her out of oblivion and making her and her family martyrs for the depressing republican party. This is all they have, and it's not even original.

[ragmop]

And, just an FYI about the...'the first mainstream African-American who is articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking guy'...comment I've been making.

That statement was made by Joe Biden about Barack Obama, and he also threw in a jab at Indian-Americans while he was at it.

Yep. And Biden was called on it, Joe (Just like you are now):

"Biden issued a statement Wednesday afternoon, saying: 'I deeply regret any offense my remark in the New York Observer might have caused anyone. That was not my intent and I expressed that to Sen. Obama.'

Biden also spoke to reporters in a conference call Wednesday afternoon and said the remark was taken out of context.

'Barack Obama is probably the most exciting candidate that the Democratic or Republican Party has produced at least since I've been around,' Biden said on the call. 'And he's fresh. He's new. He's smart. He's insightful. And I really regret that some have taken totally out of context my use of the world 'clean.'

Biden said he was referring to a phrase used by his mother." Read more here. (http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/01/31/biden.obama/)

[stricken]

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/g/a/2008/09/05/notes090508.DTL&nl=fix

Obamarama's winning this one by a landslide.

P.S. - LOVE THIS GUY!

[angischy]

Oh, I see the phorum's official election debate is finally on! Yes!!! :D
(fetches popcorn)
I think I need some goggles for all that mud-slinging though. Yikes, you guys, yikes.

okay, so far this population of this here Obama Nation has reps in the north (shark), southwest (sauce), the midwest (rags) and the southeast (sweet p).

those in the northeast, northwest and south, we are looking in your direction....:)

What about the straight-up West? I've got some catching up to do this weekend on my politics. But West Coast, check. http://www.clipartof.com/images/emoticons/xsmall2/2419_group_huddle.gif Huddle up!
Was there really any question?

[tinkerlion]

I just have to wonder, how the hell can someone with 5 kids, one of which is "special needs" give up her family and run for vice-president? I saw her schedule for the next 2 months, and she will probably not spend more than 2 hours with her kids. The first "dude" as he is called doesn't look like he can tie his own shoelaces, and to be married to her in the first place, I am sure he gets whipped around that house.

I am all for family first. especially if you have someone who has special needs and a 17 year old who is pregnant. They need a mother at this time in their lives, the kids are being held up and on display by the republican party. I wonder how long the 17 year old will stay married? It's horrible parenting.


i gotta agree with mr. c about this comment, it's bullshit to me as well.

[jahwork]

I haven't really followed this thread (no posts, just read the last 5 or 6 pages), and I am generally slow to devote a lot of time to studying up on politics because I am less interested in the play by play of daily news propaganda on our two nominees than educating myself more on the flaws in our various institutions and customs so that I might also be able to have opinions on proposed solutions or even think up an original solution of my own.

But earlier today I went through both Obama and McCain's websites and read every single page on their platforms outlining each individual issue and I also watched the respective nomination acceptance speeches. I wasn't deciding who to vote for today but I wanted to see both. I will just say that I was in full support of Dennis Kucinich earlier on in the race and you may decipher my persuasion from there, but I'm more even along the lines of a democratic socialist.

Anyways. I feel like it is an overlooked fact that fluff is of considerable importance in a presidential candidate. It is essential to reaching the most people, both when it comes down to winning votes and enacting their agenda AND creating change. Politics by nature, have to care who is the cleanest and most articulate. Americans need and appreciate "fluff" and outward appeal in everything. We have to package our rights carefully and with good marketing sense, with a shiny new vessel that can get from thought to policy in style. A vessel that will be as charismatic in his foreign diplomacy as he is in his heart stopping speeches. A vessel that will be able to convince people and companies, using both dollars and sense, to take a stand on clean energy science and production.

Fluff is important when buying a car and electing an official, but granted, anything can be deceptive from the outside and needs further investigating. A BMW shell with Kia parts will not perform as well as a thoroughbred beamer would, of course, and we have looked under the hood and Barack is all beamer baby. He looks great, works great, sounds great, he's even a hybrid! (ha, I apologize for that, but I really couldn't resist) and a vote is a symbol that trusts him to keep the people's interests at the wheel. Biden is not too shabby of an interior either. and I think based on what he's done and like the promise of a new car with a good reputation to stand on, what he can do, that he really is the man to run the country. The politically intelligent like to pretend we're all as substance oriented as they are, but truthfully, America not only needs huge fundamental change and someone who will re-grant American people the rights that the past administration has absconded, but it needs a NEW IMAGE too. We need to look good in a suit and say three syllable words with ease again! Who's with me?! :p but really.

*** I'm not stoned or anything, so there's no excuse for the abuse of figurative speech, lack of substantive content, etc. ***

YES, Palin IS a pro-ANWR drilling and mining, capital punishing, unborn fetus appreciating, creationist, abstinence-only preaching woman gov of the alaskan frontier who doesn't give a shit about wolves or beluga whales, and doesn't think human actions have had any hand in affecting climate change, BUT she is not a bad parent just cause mom is going to be busy at her new job.

[stricken]

Palin's job/family issue is a huge dilemma for me. Balance is key. I'm sure she's a good parent and probably a nice lady. I dunno. What I do know is Ms. Palin's church is holding a conference. The premise is the attempt to convert homosexuals through the power of prayer. Gag me. She sketches me out.

If anyone thinks Grandpa McSame and Little Miss Outback are going to change anything, I've got a bridge I'd love to sell you - to nowhere.

[lietuvaite]

i have never been a one issue voter, but now i really get turned off by any candidate (or anyone, for that matter) who is against same-sex marriage. as far as i'm concerned, it's an issue of human rights. i cannot believe that there are churches/people still out there who think they can convert homosexuals. i, too, am insulted by grandpa's pick of palin; def. won't be voting for him.

[ragmop]

What about the straight-up West? I've got some catching up to do this weekend on my politics. But West Coast, check. http://www.clipartof.com/images/emoticons/xsmall2/2419_group_huddle.gif Huddle up!
Was there really any question?

my bad! how could i forget the quakin' west coast? damn! sorry, ang. not that there wasn't ever any question. ;)

[sweet p]

so, i'm sure you all (or most) have seen the commercial for the McSame camp of how Obama is going to raise taxes, etc. etc. and how he opposes offshore drilling. Is that a bad thing?? the math has been done; and if we all inflated our tires to appropriate pressure and we drive a little more sensibly (easy and slow accelerations and slower stops), + other things WE can do NOW, the gas saved, FAR outweighs what more offshore drilling would provide. Something like over 7 billion gallons could be saved, compared to only over 1 billion gallons of input from future offshore drilling. Plus, offshore drilling would take SEVERAL years before it even reached our market. Not to mention, this does NOT address the fact that we need to ween ourselves off of the old crude and come up w/ far more efficient and cleaner ways to run our vehicles. AND... why would we want to put more oil rigs in the gulf which is prone to hurricanes!? I live in Florida and even though we have not been hit too bad this year w/ the hurricanes(knocking on wood)-we have been suffering w/ gas prices jumping at the pump for the simple threat of these hurricanes taking out the rigs that are out there already! SO LET'S BUILD MORE!! SOOOOOOO freaking stupid.
And now the McSame camp is saying Obama is sexist b/c of the "pig in lipstick" comment! GIVE ME A F#CKING BREAK!! Don't take it personal!! US people who have a brain know exactly what he meant and it was NOT a personal attack nor should it have been taken as one! You mean to tell me the McSame camp DOESN'T know any better? Hell, Mr. McSame used the same phrase!! I call that grasping at straws and PATHETIC!!
I say- Let the debates begin and let's watch Biden make Palin look like the amateur that she is and Obama just crush that old fart! AAARRGH!!!
I've said it before and I'll say it again-GET OUT AND VOTE AND IF YOU ARE NOT REGISTERED-DO IT AND GET OUT AND VOTE!!
LET'S GIVE THE VICTIMS OF 9/11 SOMETHING TO BE PROUD OF AND LET'S NOT LET THEIR DEATHS BE IN VAIN!
Thanks pham...for letting me vent!!

oh yeah-I also wonder how Palin TRULY feels, now that her sons army unit is being shipped out to IRAQ?? hmmmm....

[ragmop]

oh yeah-I also wonder how Palin TRULY feels, now that her sons army unit is being shipped out to IRAQ?? hmmmm....

she'll never tell you how she really feels. like most politicians, she's already sold her soul . . . .

[ragmop]

Wow, you sure got me! He still said it, all I did was take what he said and put it into a post. . . .

I was just joking around and figured somebody would call me on it pretty quickly, or at least recognize it, before people would get huffy and I would have to post the video link . . . . Hmmm, I figured you guys would catch it seeing as you are following the nominations/election so closely, but I guess not.

Not like Cheney has had influence......



um, joe, i wasn't trying "get" anyone. i was simply pointing out that as biden was jumped for his gaffe, so were you being jumped by the phorum members. ya see, it's the content (not the speaker) that's objectionable.

and i am a little confused. was your original post suppose to be how you felt about obama? or were you just repeating biden's gaffe? or were you just throwing anything out there waiting to see responses so that you could change the thread in midsteam and attempt to mock obama phorum members' supposed failure to catch your biden plagarism? i dont follow. i assume people mean what they say, and say what they mean. what new rules, joe?

or could it be when you are called out on racist remarks (which biden's comment [and your repetition] could fairly be labelled) you hide behind the old "oh-i-was-just-kidding" defense?

and talk about being asleep: "not like Cheney has had influence . . .". really. wow.

oh wait, is this another one of those statements you really don't believe but want to post it anyway? got it. good one. :cool:

[Miss Shark]

Hey Fluffy, I didn't get huffy!!!

[Miss Shark]

I think my honeymoon with Palin is over. My feelings on her pick go up and down and change day to day, some days I think she is OK, some days I think she was a horrible pick and I wish it would have been someone else. Too many negatives, too much baggage, etc. However, I can't deny the fact that she has completely changed this race and has totally knocked the wind out of Obama campaign. Not bad for an inexperienced, uneducated, small town mayor/hockey mom.

That's good to hear!

What a ploy. We're in trouble. We need a cunning stunt. I know! Let's find a stunning........

Ya with me?

[ragmop]

I don't think you read that right. I said that Palin 'won't have much say' - meaning she would not be like Cheney is with Bush, or Biden would be in an Obama Presidency (very influential). Read it again...

'She won't have much say anyway, she's just the Veep! Not like Cheney has had influence, or Biden would have influence. McCain has the Prez position covered.'

See?

I apologize, Joe. I completely read that wrong. My fault. My bad. :cool:

[angischy]

What a ploy. We're in trouble. We need a cunning stunt. I know! Let's find a stunning........

Hmmm, what rhymes with stunt? Um...Tina Fey out front (http://www.nbc.com/Saturday_Night_Live/video/clips/palin-hillary-open/656281/)?!?

[ragmop]

Hmmm, what rhymes with stunt?

. . . blunt?

[ragmop]

Hmmm, what rhymes with stunt?

. . . bunt?

[ragmop]

Hmmm, what rhymes with stunt?

. . . punt?

[ragmop]

Hmmm, what rhymes with stunt?

. . . runt?

[ragmop]

Hmmm, what rhymes with stunt?

. . . hunt?

[ragmop]

Hmmm, what rhymes with stunt?

. . . grunt?

[ragmop]

Hmmm, what rhymes with stunt?

. . . brunt?

[angischy]

. . . rhyming . . .

Hmm, I think you pretty much covered things Rags.
Oh, did I mention that my roommate is from Palin's part of the country...?

She is. And she says she's voting for her because of that. Um...:o Way to make an informed decision.

[ragmop]

One that I have heard rumblings about on Righty sites intrigues me though, have you heard?

Wait for it...

Colin Powell ------> Awesome.

I just HAD to! The minute I saw the endorsement, I thought of this cute little post by Mr. C.

Boy, the rumblings were just a TAD off on that one, eh?! Dude will wind up playing for the other team.

[sweet p]

awww....i'm watching the results and there is quite the crowd gathering in Grant Park. ENJOY! my sweet home Chicago!

.....where you at rags? are you at the park being a part of history??:D

[the duke]

I'm excited....you have no idea how much this also affects the rest of us :) Wooo!

[Miss Shark]

I literally had tears in my eyes.

[sweet p]

me, too! tears of JOY were flowing from my eyes! can i just say.....WWWWHHHHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE W!! HUGE, SIGH OF RELIEF!
Finally-someone we can connect with and someone who is going to work so hard to take this country(and everyone in it) to the highest heights!!
...woohoo, and Florida went BLUE!!!!!

IT IS A GREAT DAY!!


PRESIDENT OBAMA....NOW DOESN'T THAT SOUND GOOD!:D

[greengirlie]

... I'm pro-Obama.. but CHANGE takes awhile. I think so many people (not specifically on here) think Obama is going to save us all and that it will happen overnight... its going to take awhile....

[sway2sway]

but
obama voted for iraq
he's only moving troops around the middle east
not ending war
he's going to escalate afghanistan
he voted yes on that 700 billion deal
he voted yes on fisa
hasn't he had the most campaign contributions from wall street ever?

I don't get how he is change- sure some little superficial ways, but underneath the drummer plays on. none of the above points inspires hope, nor is that the change I was looking for. And now is the country that was vigilant on watching Bush to keep him line, will the same country ease up and just trust obama knows best, when he may well enact the same decisions as bush would.

[sway2sway]

I was kindly informed that some of my points may lack veracity.
I'm guessing, after checking, that the err would be in saying he voted for the iraq war.
Not true, as he wasn't even a senator then. And I did read bits saying that he claims to have been against iraq from the start, well obviously he's gonna say that when the tides have turned against it. Even if I believed him on that one, it in no way makes up for the escalation and ongoing killing of afghanistans, for a war that is not legal, for a war that the US would be having a fit over if any other country tried to pull that. You cannot go chase people around a country and blow it all up because you are trying to find someone. war has laws, or is that conventions to rationalize our stupidity?

In light of stepped-up violence in Afghanistan, and for political reasons -- following Obama's lead -- Bush will be moving troops from Iraq to Afghanistan. Although the U.S. invasion of Afghanistan was as illegal as the invasion of Iraq, many Americans see it as a justifiable response to the attacks of Sept. 11, 2001, and the casualties in that war have been lower than those in Iraq -- so far. Practically no one in the United States is currently questioning the legality or propriety of U.S. military involvement in Afghanistan. The cover of Time magazine calls it "The Right War."

The U.N. Charter provides that all member states must settle their international disputes by peaceful means, and no nation can use military force except in self-defense or when authorized by the Security Council. After the 9/11 attacks, the council passed two resolutions, neither of which authorized the use of military force in Afghanistan. Resolutions 1368 and 1373 condemned the Sept. 11 attacks and ordered the freezing of assets; the criminalizing of terrorist activity; the prevention of the commission of and support for terrorist attacks; and the taking of necessary steps to prevent the commission of terrorist activity, including the sharing of information. In addition, it urged ratification and enforcement of the international conventions against terrorism.

The invasion of Afghanistan was not legitimate self-defense under article 51 of the charter because the attacks on Sept. 11 were criminal attacks, not "armed attacks" by another country. Afghanistan did not attack the United States. In fact, 15 of the 19 hijackers came from Saudi Arabia. Furthermore, there was not an imminent threat of an armed attack on the United States after Sept. 11, or Bush would not have waited three weeks before initiating his October 2001 bombing campaign. The necessity for self-defense must be "instant, overwhelming, leaving no choice of means, and no moment for deliberation." This classic principle of self-defense in international law has been affirmed by the Nuremberg Tribunal and the U.N. General Assembly.

Bush's justification for attacking Afghanistan was that it was harboring Osama bin Laden and training terrorists. Iranians could have made the same argument to attack the United States after they overthrew the vicious Shah Reza Pahlavi in 1979 and he was given safe haven in the United States. The people in Latin American countries whose dictators were trained in torture techniques at the School of the Americas could likewise have attacked the torture training facility in Fort Benning, Ga., under that specious rationale. Those who conspired to hijack airplanes and kill thousands of people on 9/11 are guilty of crimes against humanity. They must be identified and brought to justice in accordance with the law. But retaliation by invading Afghanistan is not the answer and will only lead to the deaths of more of our troops and Afghans.


and now the chief of staff pick, why would he do that? not a good setup for change.
I'll leave the details in the link, but it does not look good.

...less than 24 hours after the first polls closed, the president-elect chose as his chief of staff -- perhaps the most powerful single position in any administration -- Rahm Emanuel, one of the most conservative Democratic members of Congress.

Illinois Congressman Rahm Emanuel is a member of the so-called New Democrat Coalition (NDC), of group of center-right pro-business Congressional Democrats affiliated with the Democratic Leadership Conference, which is dedicated to moving the Democratic Party away from its more liberal and progressive base. Numbering only 58 members out of 236 Democrats in the current House of Representatives, the NDC has worked closely with its Republican colleagues in pushing through and passing such legislation as those providing President Bush with "fast-track" trade authority in order to bypass efforts by labor, environmentalists and other public interest groups to promote fairer trade policy.
...
It is unclear how serious of a blow Obama's selection of Emanuel is to those who hoped that Obama might actually steer the country in a more progressive direction. It's easy to see it as nothing less than a slap in the face of the progressive anti-war elements of the party to whom Obama owes his election, particularly following his selection of Sen. Joe Biden as vice president.
http://www.alternet.org/audits/106189/?page=entire

My purpose isn't just to be a cynic and slag on your hope and excitement.
I hope too. But the way I see it, things are not matching up. The slogans don't match policy.

[sweet p]

i have no doubt that we are in for the LOOOOOOOOOONG haul as far as turning things around-years, no doubt. I also feel that all of this change hinges on one thing-US. Me, you, mom, dad, sister, brother, son, daughter, friend, neighbor...we have got to WANT to make things change for the better and work TOGETHER to make it happen.
to me, this is how Obama is change:

he wants to bring tax relief to lesser incomes
he wants to keep a woman's right to choose
he wants to bring jobs back to the U.S.
he's YOUNG and can connect with MANY people
he wants to unify, not divide us as a country
he would like to eliminate the billions/month we are spending in iraq
he wants to get Bin Laden...i don't like war, but i feel this is someone we need to get since that was the whole original mission after 9/11 happened. but then we end up in iraq and for some reason he has eluded us by hiding in mountains with his dialysis machine??
I think he truly cares about Americans
he would like our seniors "golden years" to be golden
oh, and he's the first African-American President. to me this is almost the most precious gift out of it all.

of course, he first has to be sworn in, before he can start to work for us or TRY to do anything. see i feel good saying "for us" because i feel for the past 8 years we have been LIED to, manipulated, pitted against each other and sold out for personal vendettas. we went to shit as a nation and georgie-poo just stood by and watched. i don't see how Bush was kept in line by the country? we are in this mess b/c i feel he was allowed to run amuck. i'm sure he was given lots of proper advice but he did what he wanted-F#*K what the country thinks!! we were vigilant on watching him throw us under the bus and seeing what lies he could tell and that's about it. will we just ease up? no, i don't think so. Nor do i think Obama expects any scrutiny to be any less-in fact, i get a sense he would welcome it. as i said before, he makes me feel like we all have got to be involved to make things better. what we did for the past 8 years is somehow let a total idiot in office and then TRUSTED that he was doing what was best for our country, our people. WRONG!
i'm just hopeful about feeling hopeful, again. it's been a long 8 years and i'm ready for any change-superficial or not.

[sway2sway]

yeah he's young and can connect and he connected with a lot of youth I'd venture because he touted himself as anti-war. He is far from it. He is not going to save you money on military, he is shuffling troops from iraq to afghanistan. And with all due respect, the fact that you feel you have a right to kill countless innocents, not mention bomb the fuck out of their infrastructure- all because you are chasing someone, who in all likelyhood is the smoke & mirrors boogeyman at this point- the never ending war on terror keeps you plugged into the war machine, afraid of being attacked, you allow your rights to be ebbed away in the name of security- with all due respect the US acts like it is better than everyone else and doesn't have to follow the same rules as other countries.
You can't go to war in a country for a person allegedly hiding there, who is not even of that nationality. You can't go to war on the clause that you are responding to imminent danger, when you start 2 weeks after the fact. The US has no fucking business being there, nor canada- put yourself in the shoes of an afghanistan family, can't you see how they could hate the US? can't you see how it fuels the fire?

I'll agree it is momentus and amazing to have the first black president, but not because of his policy, because of what it signifies in the society as a whole and how real progress has been made against racism.

As for Bush, there was a lot of scrutiny in alternate media, there was a swelling movement against him and what he's been pulling. There was virtually no backing by represented officials- the opposition wasn't helping us out. Republicans & Democrats are one party, arbitrarily divided.....they move their agenda forward through a charade of good cop, bad cop/ evil politician, ideological saviour.

I don't mean to be a bitch, just stomping sand castles for the fun of it- but what the hell do words like hope, change, unity, a long road- what do these slogans mean? They're like a heading, where you need to have points to back it underneath. do you agree with fisa? do you think the 700 billion payout was really to help americans at large, or the elite americans?

I know what I say isn't gonna make a dent at this point.
i might as well just leave the thread, who am I to disrupt your country's joy and excitement.
If nothing else, I just wish your country would stop making war.
sorry for the rambling nature.

[Miss Shark]

May we please revel in the after glow a little?

I hope you can see some differences between Bush and Obama, or McCain and Obama? If you were an American who would you have voted for if anyone at all?

Obama has been outspoke against Iraq from the jump, that is not made up in hind sight. I am and was against the bail out, I think I even stated that here. Banks have money they just chose not to lend it. Lower the interest rate a few points on people in trouble. A low fixed rate would knock hundreds of dollars a month off people mortgages. As for FISA I've honestly got to say I haven't read the whole act in it's entirety. Have you? I commend you if you have? I do know at least some of the power was taken away from the Persident. I do feel that Obama will not abuse the powers of office like Bush did. Fault me if you'd like, and I know he is a politician, but I have more trust in him than the alternative.

I have hope, I feel change, I see unity!

[Miss Shark]

Oh and I do not feel he will be any less scrutinized than any other President. Why would he? If anything he will be watched more so, for the color of his skin alone if nothing else. Can you see that?

[Miss Shark]

If I sound bitchy I don't mean to. I respect your opinions, and I know that you know that I know you are an intelligent compassionate woman ya know?

[sway2sway]

yes I can see that.

but I also see that his slogans and hype are not congruous with actual policy we're getting a glimpse of. and herein lies the problem, the scrutiny at this point is only superficial, or else why wouldn't people be asking him how unity and tax breaks for lower income people, meshes with the fat cats on wall street stuffing their pockets with money as they run out the door? or why you should be giving up your rights to privacy? or why the war on terror will still drive the operation of the whole country, when statistically being killed by a terrorist is a remote possibility? or how he can justify this continued quest when more people in his own country die of poverty and preventable & treatable diseases? or how war is supposed to be hopeful?

I think you're riding a high and I don't think the american scrutiny is impartial or logical- all caught up in a feeling and a hope.

let's just forget it, agree to disagree for now. I don't wanna fight right now, or discuss the issues- the other way to put it, I guess.

[sway2sway]

haha, the 'yes I can see that' was to the first post about scrutiny- not about bitchy and respected opinions. no worries, all good, but an impasse.

[Miss Shark]

I think we agree far more than we disagree. I do hope it will be better and only time will tell. I think hope is a good and needed thing all things considered.

[lietuvaite]

welcome back, sway lol
it's nice to have you back
come and play more

[sway2sway]

awww
thanks liet.

[sway2sway]

anyone getting a little uncomfortable with his cabinet picks?

[Miss Shark]

I am starting to get a nagging feeling.....

[sway2sway]

as my man Bob says, "and now you see the light, better stand up for your rights."

[Miss Shark]

Irie Mon!

[ragmop]

anyone getting a little uncomfortable with his cabinet picks?


not at all. IMO, it is simply political cover for a left agenda. we'll see though.

[angischy]

This American Life, Episode 372: The Inauguration Show (http://thislife.org/Radio_Episode.aspx?episode=372)

On the eve of Barack Obama's inauguration, we sent reporters out all over the country to talk to people about how they're feeling about this new president. Do they believe things will change? Do they think there'll be changes in their own lives?
From dozens of hours of interviews, at a Marine Corps base and a button factory, at a New Orleans bar and a Florida town that used to be a stronghold for the Ku Klux Klan, we hear opinions about what's going to happen in America after the ceremony on January 20th, 2009.

http://i42.tinypic.com/m9llx2.jpg
And, look, some cookies!

[Miss Shark]

It's nice to know some of the Bush administrations (criminal) actions will be investigated, although I don't hold out too much hope.